Show Notes

If ever there was a silver lining to the pandemic it’s that it has afforded us a rare opportunity to reevaluate our relationships. In many ways it has minimized our distractions. It forces us to acknowledge on a deeper level the interpersonal connections we have with the people under our roofs. Some people will make it  and some people won’t. It all depends on how you use this time. As tension runs high in our households during quarantine you might imagine that there would be an impact on the divorce rates in America, but is that actually true? What do you do when it seems like there’s nothing that can be done. 

In this episode we cover:

• Our origin story

• What 2020 was like for us and our clients

• Divorce rate trends

• Living and working a virtual life

• Making hard transitions and decision

• Feeling and coping with loss and discomfort

• How to be human right now

Transcript

Meredith Shirey (00:00):

Connecting as a couple is so essential because we're all trying to hold our families together, right? The couple are the glue that binds. So without the couple we lose the family. And so I think that so many people lose themselves in children, that business of marriage, that, you know, by the end of it, by the time your kids have left the house, you look, and you say, well, who is this person?

[Theme Music]

Meredith Shirey (00:30):

Hey everyone, I'm Meredith Tyree. I'm a licensed psychotherapist, specializing in relationship issues, adjusting a divorce attorney. This is a podcast about filling in the gaps of our relationships, the deeply personal choices we make for our families and ourselves,

Isaiah Vallejo-Juste (00:45):

And the impact that our actions have on the rest of our lines. This is me, or leave me, you know, how to human. That's a great question. You asked, um, Meredith at the end of the last episode, you know, w here we are going through about to go through the second wave of depends immigrate. We're recording. We're recording this in late November, and it's just a quick question to ask right now, you know, a lot of the things that we could do in the summer, we ended up can't do anymore. And now we're going back to, hopefully not, but we could be going back to where we were in March and April. Right? So with that said, it's, it's so difficult to try to figure out, you know, how to remain safe and what are we doing nowadays? Right. I mean, one of the things that I've been encountering very lately is working from home, you know, and how, and how do we separate those boundaries? You understand? And how do we maintain our mental health when we do so, because while I love working from home, right, it's great. You wake up in the morning, 10 seconds away from your office, and it's fine, right? It's, it's great. You don't have to get on the bus. You don't have to get on the train. You know, you're at home, but on the flip side of that, you're at home, right? That's what you live. And while somebody like me, I love to work from home, but I'd much rather live at home.

Meredith Shirey (02:05):

That is the key point there living at home versus living at work. Because when we don't have this separation separating work from home, which is, was a struggle for people way before the pandemic, is that much more because you don't have the same separation. So one thing that I recommend people doing is exactly what you said as we're going into the second wave, let's get ahead of the conflicts and the pitfalls, because it is going to look really different. You're not gonna have the same activities and outlets to cope that you might have in the summer. So if your kids were driving you crazy, you couldn't, you know, go for a swim or, you know, go hiking, something like that. Um, one thing that I recommend doing that, I think a lot of us did not realize the utility of it was our commute, because your commute was your time to either gear up for work or dial down when you were coming home, which allowed you to relax when you got home, right?

Meredith Shirey (02:57):

So you said, I want to relax at home. I don't want to work at home. So one thing that I think is really essential is creating some kind of commute. If that means that you walk around your house, if it's 10 feet of snow and you just run up and down your stairs a couple times, if you scream into the pillow for 30 seconds, if you take 10, 15 minutes and meditate something to switch your mode from being at work in the office, to being at home. The other thing about that is you need to separate out the spaces where you work and where you relax. And I cannot say this enough, if we hear nothing else, please hear this. Do not work in your bedroom.

Isaiah Vallejo-Juste (03:41):

You know, it's funny that you say that because I literally lived that life. Right. First couple of months at a pandemic I was working on in my bedroom. My wife was working on a dining room table and it got to the point where it was like, no, this is going to stop now. Right? Because it became very mentally challenging. And so what we did is we moved into that famous 1940s spare room that we have with the 1940s wallpaper and ever since then, we've you're right. It's been a lot better.

Meredith Shirey (04:06):

Yeah, exactly. And another thing too, and again, you don't have to do this full to the full extent, because I will fully admit guilt guiltier, but try to dress a little more like you would at the office. You know, so put on pants is a good starter, uh, put on a different pair of pants than the ones you've been wearing all week, if you can. Um, and at least somewhat try to look like you're looking the part, because part of being in your lounge wear the entire time. Again, there is something that your brain does to separate, okay. These physical, tactile things about being at home versus being at work. And so the more you can engineer that in a different way, it's going to help you to actually make that separation. Because again, we're here to be more

Isaiah Vallejo-Juste (04:48):

Well, you know, in my house, jeans are like evening wear nowadays. So you're saying that I can't, I can't hang out with my sweat pants and top suit anymore. You know, I call it my top suit. So if I have to appear in court, I have top, the top part of me is in a suit. And the bottom part of me is in my sweat pants. Why are you saying I shouldn't do that?

Meredith Shirey (05:04):

I mean, you know, if genes are considered black tie, maybe there's a middle ground, or maybe it's your, your nice pair of sweatpants, you know, if you've got some creation there. Um, but the point is don't do it every day. Like I know for me personally, on the days when I do actually, you know, put on a blazer or my, my cardigan therapist uniform, I feel a little better. I feel a little more in my element and it feels a little more like I'm working. And then when I change after it feels a little more like I'm getting into relax mode. And so I'm actually able to make that separation more so you don't have to, you know, but it might just be something to help you again, mentally make sure you're making that separation because physically we might not be able to do that. Like we used to.

Isaiah Vallejo-Juste (05:49):

So are you saying I can't do things like check my email at three o'clock in the morning when I wake up in the middle of the night, is that unhealthy.

Meredith Shirey (05:57):

For a number of reasons? Yes, please. Don't do that. I'm sure that your partner probably doesn't appreciate the blue light in the middle of the night either. And speaking of that, it's a big part of this too, is making sure that all the fights that we had the first time around don't become a sticking point. I know we talked last time about the fact that it seems like after in March and April, when the courts were closed, divorce rates have been on the rise. And so getting ahead of the conflicts and being really proactive in your communication, coming up with the game plans now is really, really essential because it helps us to eliminate those negative assumptions about the things that our partner may or may not feel before they actually become a problem before they become a fight.

Isaiah Vallejo-Juste (06:44):

I think that's a great idea. And I try to do that with, with my wife and, you know, it could be, it could be a real struggle given the whole work from home environment and creating the boundaries and separating out space. And you know, now, you know, the kids are in virtual school, right? At least my kids are, and all of New York city is right now. And that I find the bees so difficult. My kids are okay, but what I'd rather have them in school and being with their friends and hanging out and doing their clubs and all of that. Absolutely. But that's just not the situation that we're in. My kids are completely virtual while my son is technically pre-K. My daughter is in the third grade. And so we chose virtual school, but we don't judge either. Right? We don't judge any parent. You know, the parents that are choosing virtual school are choosing virtual school because they're saying, you know, they have health concerns for the kids and maybe their family members, if their kids, God forbid bring something home. The parents that are choosing in person schooling are choosing it. They're worried about their kids' mental health. And maybe that's the greatest concern, or maybe they're first responders and have jobs where they have to physically go into their place of employment. So we really don't judge, but for us it's virtual school.

Meredith Shirey (07:52):

And like you said, it's so different for each child and each family. And I love what you said there about taking the judgment out of it, because the fact is there isn't one that's necessarily a better worse for kids. It depends on your kid and your family. That's what really matters here. And I imagine that for you and your wife, the added pressure to not only have you guys having to take on the job of teacher, in addition to that, you're both working professionals and you specifically have a job like mine, where we have this responsibility for maintaining client confidentiality. I would imagine that's fairly difficult when we all have to figure out how to have separate spaces.

Isaiah Vallejo-Juste (08:31):

Yeah. I mean, basically I will just leave the room that we're in, right. I'll go to the bedroom. And I know that's a violation of what, you're your edicts there, but I, I go to the bedroom or I'll go to the car. You know, I spend hours in the car on a phone sometimes, or I'll ask for privacy in the room. If I have to do that, we have various different ways, both my wife and I deal with some sensitive issues. So we have, um, various different ways of doing that.

Meredith Shirey (08:58):

I'd imagine that's helpful that you both have jobs where you deal with this sensitivity, because it probably gives you both a better understanding of when the other person's saying, I need privacy. You're not pushing the other person away. You're saying this is something I need to be able to maintain my professional role. That is something where if one person doesn't have that, they don't quite necessarily understand, unless you explicitly tell them, this is what I need. This is what's okay. This is, what's not okay. Which is again, why it's really important to talk about boundaries and expectations and give, uh, how they can honor your boundaries and tell them a little bit more about why I think giving the context makes all the difference in the world, right? Again, it's not, I'm trying to get away from you. It's that I cannot have you in the same room or hearing what's going on because that's dangerous for the client.

Isaiah Vallejo-Juste (09:50):

You know, Meredith you're you're right about what you talk about the need to communicate and set the boundaries between you and your spouse or your partner while you're working from home. Right? Because it's so important to have those boundaries and to establish those, those lines of communication in my house is two other people here who will aren't necessarily the most logical beings in the world. You know, our kids and setting boundaries with them is, is near impossible, right? Cause the kids literally want to be on top of you, 24 hours a day, seven days a week. It's you know, mommy, mommy, mommy, and daddy, daddy, daddy. And when I find with them is like, they're so happy. You're home. Like I, like I said, the last episode, one from 15 minutes to 24 hours, they're thrilled to have me here, but then they don't understand. No daddy has to work now. Right? So it's hard to establish those boundaries or they have to be in school now. And that my kids are doing virtual schooling here. Um, everybody has, but that's what, that's what we're doing. So we, we have a super like need to have those beds.

Meredith Shirey (10:55):

I think that kids being in school period probably helps that, but that's why the consistency and having a schedule and again, creating as much of a normal work week as you can without actually going to the office, the better having a separate room and even having some kind of like a sign on the door. If your kids are too young to read some kind of family ruling code that when mom or dad are in this room, you're not allowed to come in, right. This is when we're working. And I think establishing that and, and telling them that this means I'm not here, basically. I'm talking to them in that way. And then also saying it, not just from a place of punishment and discipline, but saying, but when I come out, I'm so excited to see you. And that's why the piece about attunement during all of this is really, really important because yes, we are on top of each other, we're spending a lot more time together, time together in the temporal sense, necessarily equate to quality time in the emotional connecting sense.

Meredith Shirey (11:58):

So when you're not in the office, make sure that you are creating space to connect with your children because believe it or not, that is actually going to make them more likely to adhere to the boundaries about when you're in the office, in the office being, you know, at the table or in the next room, wherever that is, because they're not worried about the next time they're going to get that. They're expecting that. So I think when it comes to virtual school versus in person one, again, all the more important to talk to your spouse about it, because boundaries are really important. And because you're both in taking on the role of teacher, in addition to everything else you're doing, and that puts a lot more pressure on your relationship, how are you and your spouse going about negotiating that with having two young kids?

Isaiah Vallejo-Juste (12:46):

Well, I mean, basically I find a space of flight. I'll either go to the car and I've been in the car for many hours before, and it's a little heavily cause it's quiet. And then sometimes we'll sneak a nap in the car. I don't know what my neighbors think of me because I walked by several times as I'm in the car,

Meredith Shirey (13:01):

They probably just want to make sure you're alive and you're like not dead.

Isaiah Vallejo-Juste (13:04):

Yeah. And the one, one time, my wife, it's not going to happen in the, and she was like, this is the best sleep ever. So we'll do that. Or I'll go to a different room. I go to the bedroom again, I know that's a breaking of one of their rules, but, um, I'll go to the bedroom and that seems to be okay. But yeah. So that's that those are, it's kind of some of the tactics that we've taken. Maybe we'll schedule something when the kids are like in front of their screens during virtual school, during the live part. Um, that's something else that, that we try to do.

Meredith Shirey (13:31):

Oh, that's so smart. I think that that is a really good takeaway to give people is make sure that, that you know, what your office hours are, make sure you're communicating that to one another and yet take advantage of the time when your kids are doing something else. And when you can create, um, carve out that privacy and that kind of thing.

Isaiah Vallejo-Juste (13:50):

Have you seen, uh, couples that, that you've given therapy to that disagree on in-person versus virtual schooling? Or have you heard of that

Meredith Shirey (14:01):

I haven't seen too many disagreements on that? I think that for parents, in any situation in every family, it's just negotiating again, what are our needs and what are the needs for the individual? Where did the, uh, the needs for the group, you know, for our family. And I think every couple and every family weigh that very, very good.

Isaiah Vallejo-Juste (14:22):

Yeah. No, I, I, you know, I have friends that I've had some disagreements and, you know, I think it's important just to communicate with each other, um, about, about the issue and then make the best decision that, that you can, you know, in, in the, in the divorced world, there's obviously, there's always disagreement on various things. And, you know, I try to counsel people just to do the best thing you think, to make the best decision as a parent that you've done.

Meredith Shirey (14:50):

Right. And I making the best decision you can with the information you have. And as we know, that's changing quite a bit. So this conversation might come up when a vaccine becomes readily available. Have you seen this in terms of disagreement or in terms of trying to negotiate those boundaries with couples maybe who are going through a divorce and can't actually live separately? Yes,

Isaiah Vallejo-Juste (15:13):

That's certainly happens. And the bottom line, there is the parents have to try to come to a decision, right? And the courts don't really want to get involved in that. I mean, I guess it forced a court to make a decision. It would make some decision. It would take a while. It's not like there's a law out there that says vowel, shout, put your child in person or thou shalt put your challenge in virtual school. It's gonna come down to what's the best decision for that individual child. And really parents are better off making that decision on their own, right? Because if you make the decision on your own, whether you agree with it or you don't, you have input when a judge makes a decision, you have no input. Usually somebody who's going to be happening. Somebody is not going to be happy or morph and neither party is going to be happy.

Meredith Shirey (15:59):

I could see that. Yeah. And it's interesting because I think in so many ways in this pandemic, people are, are looking to replace the control that we've lost in other ways, you know, and in other ways, it's like we're abdicating our responsibility and control. So I think that that's such a good point about, you need to make the decision for your child. Don't let a judge make it. But that also means that you and your, your former partner are gonna have to find some means of coming to an agreement. Even if it doesn't mean you necessarily get your way, but we have to find something that feels like it's meeting the needs and we're not just advocating responsibility for making the decision.

Isaiah Vallejo-Juste (16:40):

Yeah, that's right. And I think that goes with all things, right? It's not just with school, but with everything generally, right. Because we're more than just work in schools. Right. There's so much more to us than that.

Meredith Shirey (16:51):

True. And you know, things like the need for culture and, and incorporating, uh, faith and religion, those kinds of things. I know that those are things that parents and families in general are worried about losing for themselves, for their family, for their kids. And you know, one thing that I think is really helpful is as much as you can take those times for bonding with your family, having some fun and using that creatively to incorporate things like, um, if you practice religion, have a conversation, you know, do the online church, please don't go in person. I don't think that's safe yet, but have a conversation about what was talked about that day during worship, you know, make worship something that you do as a family and for culture, do a virtual museum visit and then talk about what was your favorite thing that you saw, or, you know, make a food or something from a country that you're talking about and almost have like a family report on it.

Meredith Shirey (17:50):

Everyone's going to learn something about this country. The point is, is that you can be really creative and you can use it for time again, to bond and to have really positive experiences. One of the things that I think is helpful, especially as parents navigating relationships with your kids, and then also as partners now, beginning of romantic relationship is this big piece of attunement and listening to one another and tuning in. And there's some real opportunities right now to relearn one another and making sure that you're scheduling time to check in, to really look and see and to say, Hey, how are you doing? How are you feeling what's going on in your world? And to really relearn one another, that will circumvent so many areas of conflict. And so the more we can circumvent the conflict and move more from like discipline and fight and waiting until things are a problem to finding reframes before they're a problem. The more likely you're to have a positive quarantined experience,

Isaiah Vallejo-Juste (18:54):

You have to have a good time. Right. Right. You have to figure out how to have a good time and, you know, trying figured out ways to do what you did before at home or in the backyard or in a park. Right. Uh, we've we've done some of that, you know, so much with us, like so much of being in a relationship or so much of being a parent involves other things. Right. And a lot of that gets stripped away. Like, you know, when the kids were, were bored at home in the past, we would take them to a trampoline park. You know, if you ever wanna imagine, I don't know, a couple of hundred kids under the age of 10 jumping on trampolines. That's literally what it was. I cannot possibly think of perhaps a more unsafe practice right now, but you know, that's, that's gone. So what do you do? How do you burn that excess energy? So I'm telling you the trampoline park one hour, the kids are done, they're done, you take them home, they are ready to go to sleep, shower, sleep. It's great. It's fantastic. But

Meredith Shirey (19:54):

I mean, I did that as an adult and I was worn out after 15 minutes and thought I was going to kill some kids because I'm bigger. Well, actually no I was the same size as them, but colliding with them. So I, I hear you on that one.

Isaiah Vallejo-Juste (20:06):

Yeah. So it's, it's just like, just trying to figure out those things and, you know, we've had some fun stuff and then cooking together and things like that. But you know, sometimes it's, sometimes it's probably a little bit too much screen time and, you know, just trying to get through the day. And I think you have to give yourself space to be imperfect too. Right. We're all just, we're all like we keep saying, we're all just human. You're trying to figure this out. Um, there's nothing in our cultural DNA about this, right? Our grandparents didn't go to this. So, and, and you know, it was the first time that we were able to do this, like this, right. Like on the internet. So it's different.

Meredith Shirey (20:41):

That's so true. And to your point too, you know, I know that it's a little bit different for you because your kids are a bit younger. Um, but, and I think a lot of parents, and I'd imagine you and your spouse are included in this. It feels like there's a lot of pressure on parents to entertain the kids. And it's like, okay, give them screens. Don't give them too many screens. And then you need to do all these things and you're right. You don't have to be the perfect parent and you don't always have to have something lined up for your kids. You know, if they're younger and you're going to take away the screen, do you try to have some kind of structured activity in place, but especially as they get a little older, so, um, your child who's around eight. That's a great time to say, Hey, go be outside and make up a game. Right. Um, go ride your bike or do something. I promise you, boredom will not kill your children. They might try to tell you it will, but there are zero deaths attributed to boredom.

Isaiah Vallejo-Juste (21:35):

Yeah. Uh, the next time my kids are bored out. I'll tell them to try to be more creative. I don't know. I don't know how it will work, but you know, you're right out of the boredom, coming to dance parties and the new games they invent and all those types of things. And then, you know, I think it's a pretty resilient than the, when they figure themselves out into this thing. Um, I think it's also important not to forget the couple of the people, the PR people in the relationship that's so easy to do, right? Because you have right now, you have to be everything for the children. You have to be teacher. You have to be parent. You have to be friend. You have to be caretaker everything. And at the same time, technically right now you'd have to be the same thing for, for your partner or your spouse. Right. You have to be the best brand. The co-worker the therapist, the partner, everything, even, even if, and wow, the world appears to be crumbling around me.

Meredith Shirey (22:24):

You know, I use this quote last time. I'll use it again from Esther Perel, that what we used to get from a village, we now try to get from one person and during quarantine, we don't even have anyone else outside to supplement that. And so if you and your partner have different levels or needs in terms of socialization, that can really create some dissonance and be a real hotbed for conflict. And so this is why, again, the name of the game here is communication. The more you talk about what your needs are, the more you're going to be able to mitigate having those escalating fights. And to your point, yes. You know, connecting as a couple is so essential because we're all trying to hold our families together, right? The couple are the glue that binds. So without the couple we lose the family. And so I think that so many people lose themselves in children, that business of marriage that, you know, by the end of it, by the time your kids have left the house, you look, and you say, well, who is this person? You know, I'd imagine you probably see that in your office quite a bit.

Isaiah Vallejo-Juste (23:27):

Yeah. It does happen that, you know, a popular time to kind of go through a divorce is when the children have left the home. Right. And some of that is because like you said, you know, you look at the spouse and say, well, who is this person? Right. I haven't spoken to this person in years, right?

Meredith Shirey (23:42):

Yeah. Yeah. And that's actually now more than ever, we have this time together, learn your partner again, quoting my girl, Esther Perel. You're probably going to have two or three great loves in your life. And if you're very lucky, you can have them with the same person. And the meaning there is that throughout this entire process, none of us are the same people that we were in the beginning of 2020. None of us are. And that's okay. That doesn't have to be the threat to your relationship. What you can do to reframe that though, is to think about the excitement and the novelty of getting to know this new person and to do that, you're going to have to find some time for dates, dates at home.

Isaiah Vallejo-Juste (24:27):

Yeah. It's funny you say that we, um, in my house, we call that revenge, right? It's something that we read about something we read about called the revenge bedtime procrastination. And it's like, when you've lost all control of your life, you take revenge by stealing time before you go to sleep. And so, you know, in the beginning, my wife and I were up until about three, four, sometimes five o'clock in the morning on a regular basis. And it was great because that was kind of at a time that we were spent with each other and probably watching way too much Netflix. But, um, yeah, that's what we did. And it worked really well now with the virtual schooling being live. Uh, we have to go to sleep a little earlier, but we still managed to go to sleep probably usually around two o'clock in the morning. Um, honestly, which is probably not the healthiest thing for your, you know, for your body, but mentally, I mean, that really works for me.

Meredith Shirey (25:20):

Like you said, it gives you time for you and your wife to check out. And I actually love that you're calling it revenge because it's, it's putting the emphasis on you guys as a couple joining, and I know you love your children. So this is a meaning, like you're, there's malice for the kid, but it's putting you and your wife on a team together and having that kind of cohesion that is really the secret sauce of making a marriage work and actually growing closer, despite all these crazy times and challenges. So it's really, really cool that you guys are already baking that into your routine. That's that's incredible. So have you guys thought of anything fun for date nights or heavy had anything creative you can do

Isaiah Vallejo-Juste (26:00):

Again? We do a lot of Netflix. We'll go on drives. We'll we'll cook dinner. Um, I like to cook a lot. So, um, the other day I made like short ribs and polenta, I'll make beef bourguignon, or, you know, coq au vin or I'll make or I got into this very French period. And then I got into this very Mexican period. So we were making like a lot of tacos and we learned how to make tacos from scratch. Uh that's because we ran out of bread and we were like, this is like back in April. And we were like, where are we going to get bread from? So I said, no problem. We're going to order the, one of the only things that we could order was the corn flour and says, okay, we're going to order corn flour from like the knockoff Amazon site, or I think it was a Sam's Club, whatever it was. And we ordered it, we, and we started making tortillas. Yes. And then I was like, all right, well, let's try making different types of tacos. You know, we do all different types of things and now we're bored again. So now we're in Ireland land. So I made the other day with the beef and then the potato Shepherd's pie I made separate, separate, probably the other thing. Uh, w I forgot that. Yeah.

Meredith Shirey (27:04):

It's okay. It's not because I'm Irish. I just, I went to Dublin a few years ago and that was on every menu. And I specifically don't like Shepherd's pie. And so I had a really hard time eating in Ireland. I was like, wait, this is all meat and potatoes. Oh yeah. That's kind of what you're known for. Right. I promise you like my Shepherd's pie, I probably would, because, you know, we've talked a lot about the, the Spanish cooking and that kind of thing. I probably like, cause I bet you spice it up and made it good.

Isaiah Vallejo-Juste (27:27):

Indeed, indeed I did.

Meredith Shirey (27:29):

Yeah, That's awesome. And that's great that you guys found a way to be creative within your cooking. Um, there are a lot of things you can try to do for date night, just to, again, I think the point is time with your spouse, where you're not concentrating on the kids. We're not just doing this business of marriage and managing the children in a household. We're actually getting to know one another again. And part of how you can make date nights special. Even if, again, you're just kind of cooking. So here's an idea for it. You can try this. Hopefully, hopefully rice, not listening to this one. If you're listening, just, just tune out real quick. So the next time she's cooking, you know, you can do pandemic formal, pandemic black tie, but you know, dress up, put on something nice and it might surprise her.

Meredith Shirey (28:15):

Right? Don't tell her you're doing this and come in with, you know, even if you just kind of throw together like some fake flowers and pull out of a base somewhere else in the house or something silly like that. But treat it as though you're like going for a date, you know, before you guys were married or something, something novel, something that says, Hey, I care about you enough to show you that I'm making some effort again, and it doesn't have to be anything crazy. Those are the little things that tell your partner. I'm still in this with you. I still like you and care about you enough to want to impress you.

Isaiah Vallejo-Juste (28:48):

That's a great idea. Yeah. and, I mean, maybe it's just about being open to new things in a different, in a different world, right? Maybe there's about being a little flexible.

Meredith Shirey (28:58):

Exactly. If you take one thing from this, the best thing you can be right now for yourself, for your partner, for your children, for your family, be flexible, be patient and be flexible and talk about things. I think in our next episode, we're going to be talking about communication because it's so important to have some strategies, right. We've been saying, Hey, talk to your, talk to your spouse, talk to your children. So I think it's really important that we actually talk about how do you do that?

Isaiah Vallejo-Juste (29:28):

Yeah, I think that's a great point. I always say that, you know, communication is probably the most important thing in a marriage. And no question people always ask me is what is the most contributing factor to getting a divorce? And my answer is always, it's not, it's not any of that miscommunication. All of that other stuff usually comes as a result of a lack of communication and perhaps, you know, being flexible and having them based from home and all of that. That's what that's really saying. Right? Communicate, communicate, communicate. You know, maybe what we take away from this, from this episode is to remember, to give each other space right. To be flexible, okay. To, to listen to each other, also to recognize that we may not always be in the best news, right. We might be a little, be a little depressed and give ourselves space to be depressed, but also create opportunities for ourselves to be better.

Meredith Shirey (30:22):

I love that. [inaudible]

Rich Hackman [Producer] (30:32):

Love me or leave me is a podcast production of the board brand. This podcast is for informational purposes only. It does not constitute medical or legal advice and is not a substitute for professional consultation, diagnosis or treatment. Always follow up with a licensed attorney or healthcare professional who can address your specific needs. Thanks for listening.