Making of Love me or Leave Me with Rich Hackman
Show Notes
As we wrap up the first half of our season, we pause to reflect on the nature of all the impactful conversations we’ve had, and the exponential personal and professional growth we’ve experience. To help us unpack the ever-nuanced process we undertook is our friend and producer Rich Hackman.
In this episode we cover:
Helping businesses tell their stories
Origins of Love Me or Leave Me
The Need for Important Conversations
The Benefits Of Having A Podcast
What’s Next? New Episode Topics
Transcript
Rich Hackman (00:00):
I think it's going to be exciting to really dig deep into how the sausage is made on this podcast. That's why we're here, right? To kind of do it, look back.
[Theme Music]
Meredith Shirey (00:18):
Hey everyone, I'm Meredith Shirey. I'm a licensed psychotherapist specializing in relationship issues.
Isaiah Vallejo-Juste (00:23):
and I'm Isaiah Vallejo-Juste, a divorce attorney.
Meredith Shirey (00:26):
This is a podcast about filling in the gaps of our relationships, the deeply personal choices we make for our families and ourselves,
Isaiah Vallejo-Juste (00:33):
And the impact that our actions have on the rest of our lives. This is Love Me or Leave Me.
Meredith Shirey (00:43):
Hey everyone. Welcome back. We wanted to do something special for this episode because we're going to be taking a little bit of a hiatus after this to have a little bit of a break. So we wanted to do a recap where we can talk about what we learned so far, and we thought what a wonderful opportunity to have a very, very special guest of ours. I'm actually very excited. This is one of my dearest friends. He's also our producer and we could not have done any of the show without him. Rich Hackman.
Rich Hackman (01:13):
Thank you. That's such a nice introduction. Really appreciate that. Thanks for having me on, but always I've been here working in the background regardless,
Isaiah Vallejo-Juste (01:21):
I guess, welcome to your show. Rich? You know, but Rich why don't you tell a little about yourself. What made you crazy enough to, uh, take this on?
Rich Hackman (01:31):
You know, I, I really enjoy entrepreneurship and working with small businesses, that's been a passion of mine for a very long time. And so many years ago I decided I was going to create a company called the Bored Brand. And the focus was on working with solo-preneurs, working with entrepreneurs of all sizes and working with small businesses to help them tell their stories, whether it was branding stories, promotional stories, uh, content stories, just ways for them to really get their names out there and their messages. More importantly, it. It seemed like a very seamless fit to just hear the work that you guys do in terms of therapy. And in terms of divorce law, it resonated with my vision and my mission in life, which is to help tell the stories, and to help bridge the gaps, and to help people foster relationships. So I was super excited when you both came to me with this idea for a podcast and seeing that my wheelhouse is everything multimedia. I was just psyched to be on board and to create something so amazing and beautiful that everyone's going to want to be a part of it.
Meredith Shirey (02:38):
Little did you know, you'd get Isaiah and I and all of our tomfoolery,
Rich Hackman (02:43):
That's the perk of the job. I think it's going to be exciting to really dig deep into how the sausage is made on this podcast. That's why we're here, right? To kind of do a look back. One of the things I will divulge to the listeners right now is that Meredith and Isaiah have to be very about what they say on this podcast because of the sensitive nature of the jobs that they're in. And that was one of the biggest parts of the discussions we had at the very start.
Meredith Shirey (03:08):
What did we sign up for? Isaiah? What did we agree to?
Isaiah Vallejo-Juste (03:11):
I don't know.
Meredith Shirey (03:14):
The wheels are coming off. All right.
Rich Hackman (03:16):
I think it's important for people to understand that because of the very sensitive nature of the jobs that you're doing, there's only so much that you can share, but at the same time, that doesn't mean that you can't really give them the advice that they need. So it was very important for all three of us to kind of come to the table and try to figure out what was the best way to talk about some of these sensitive issues that we wanted to talk about, whether it's in terms of traumatic experiences, in a relationship and trying to figure out the best way to dissolve a marriage, finding the best way to communicate with your spouse during COVID. There were so many different things. What were some of those initial expectations you had for this show? Getting started? I had originally called Meredith to pique her interest.
Isaiah Vallejo-Juste (04:00):
And honestly, at the time it was, Oh, you know, I Googled that. We should have like some art and like get some microphones. We'll just talk on the internet and figure it out. It's become so much more than that because this is how I come up with ideas. I'm like, Oh yeah. You know, we'll just know it and we'll figure it out as it goes and that'll be that. So I think that was my initial impression was it's like, yeah, it's a thing that we'll do. It'd be easy. But you know, it's taken a lot of time and a lot of effort and it really happy with what we've put out there.
Meredith Shirey (04:24):
You know, I'm thinking back to those conversations too. And when we talked about this and you, and I had said, Hey, why don't we do a podcast? Because we realize we had this really interesting thing where we respect each other's professional work so much. We thought what's a way to democratize this and make it available for people, especially in midst COVID. So we thought, okay, this might be a really great way to get information out to the broad public. And of course, Rich's very close friend of mine and I knew he has this company. And so I floated it by him, quite frankly, Rich, I expected you to be like, no, Meredith, this sounds crazy and much to my chagrin. You were like, that sounds amazing. Let's set up a meeting. And I was like, wait, we're doing this? Here's something I've really learned. I had no idea how involved podcasts were, how much planning goes into it and how organized and how detailed, I mean, cause we poured over so many details.
Meredith Shirey (05:15):
I mean, God knows how many hours we spent talking through ideas, making sure that we're thinking about all angles of this to try to make sure that we're delivering something that's palatable and useful for listeners. That's meeting both our professional, moral code and our personal moral code. And then also trying to find a way to make it fun because God knows no one wants to read a textbook and, and our fields can be a little dry at times. And so trying to find a way to combine all of these things, the fact that you do this on the regular basis, fridge just amazes me. And quite frankly, there is no way we could have even gotten one episode off the ground if it was just Isaiah and I, because as you have realized, when it comes to technology, you are absolutely the adult in the room.
Rich Hackman (05:54):
There's a universe where you could have done this completely by yourselves and it would have still been great. I'm putting that out there and as your producer. I always like to empower you guys to be able to do that kind of stuff. For my part, I will say it doesn't happen all the time. People have lots of great ideas and very poor execution, you know, frequently I'll talk with friends and colleagues who will say, Hey, I've got this great idea, rich, we should do this thing, you know, and not anymore. But it used to be about like once a day, somebody would say, I've got this idea and Hey, we should do this together. And usually what that translates into is I have the idea rich, I want you to do everything else.
Rich Hackman (06:35):
And so in the past, I've been very hesitant to just jump on board, but something was different about you guys, understanding people's why's is so important. And so Meredith, when you kind of broke down to me, what you and Isaiah had been talking about and were thinking about, and that you wanted to kind of bring me on board. I didn't give it a second thought. I said, yes, this sounds great. And I got the concept right off the bat. A therapist and a divorce attorney? That's gold. Let's do something with that. And at the same time, I also thought to myself, this has to be done, right? Because the nature of the conversations and the subject matter just needs to be ideal for people to really take away something important from this, my expectations so far have been entirely met. You guys came in super professional, super conscientious and empathetic, and also willing to learn the process and what it takes to actually put on a good listening experience for people.
Meredith Shirey (07:36):
And there were a few times, I think in the beginning I was worried that we had such different ways of thinking and organizing. I was like, Oh man, I don't know if we're going to be able to do this, but, but it's so funny because we have taken in a process and evolved it to the point that we really say we're like yin and yang, you know, you must have both of them, but now this is almost like a three-way is there a third version? It's like primary colors. One's okay. Two, you can make a few colors, but when you have all three primary colors, you can make the entire spectrum of the rainbow. And that's kind of how I think about the three of us is it takes all of us to do this. I have a brain that's like a big exploded box of confetti that goes everywhere. And so we have to have someone like Isaiah, who's a little more succinct and grounded to put everything together. Right. And to organize it neatly. So I almost think about it like, like sometimes I'm like the kite and Isaiah is a string because if the kite just went off in the wind and I, you know, I get stuck in a tree and like a second.
Rich Hackman (08:29):
By virtue, and by nature of your guys's professions, you Meredith as therapist, Isaiah, as a divorce attorney, your characteristics are very different. And so in a lot of ways, Isaiah has to be succinct and concise. And Meredith you have to kind of expand and expound on, you know, more virtues and values of a human nature. What has it meant for you guys to come out of that work setting and to have your own and to be hosts of this podcast, to create this thing that's benefiting others. How is it different than sort of your everyday work life?
Isaiah Vallejo-Juste (09:04):
This is what I create great. Like I've created a business and that's awesome, but I've created the content here. What I love about it is it's basically my way, one of my ways, any way to put positivity out into the world is trying to help people. So that reason, like I love this stuff we do here because I genuinely think that helps people who listen.
Meredith Shirey (09:23):
I'm so humbled and honored that we found a way to do this because I think that it's a different way for us to share our knowledge. And we're both very passionate about our fields. And so it's a way for us to share knowledge that doesn't come with the pressure and the liability of it being a client relationship, because it's a little more general. And because it allows us to have a little more creativity in it and to let our hair down a little so to speak than we would if we were in our respective offices, because our client relationships are these very one-sided relationships where we're learning a lot about one person because we're working for them, we're trying to provide them a service. And also too, it's just a really nice way to feel like we can connect with people in a way where we can give them palatable, hopefully useful information because everyone is going through so much right now we know that everyone's relationships have been tried in a number of different ways. And so I think it's also our way of putting ourselves out and showing that, that compassionate, empathic side of us, that really human side, that just really loves to connect with people and show how much we care about making this world a better,
Rich Hackman (10:29):
There's an importance that's needed in terms of having real conversations. We bring a lot of ourselves to these topics that we discuss, these podcast episodes. I think it can be difficult, especially because of the nature of your jobs and not wanting to use specific examples and things like that. But can you both dig deep and touch on what it is that you've been bringing to the show personally that really you would not normally bring to your day job?
Isaiah Vallejo-Juste (10:58):
This podcast for me personally has been therapeutic. You know, we're, we're going through a pandemic, having another outlet to be with you guys for me personally is therapeutic. So I would say I bring more of that therapeutic aspect of myself, um, to the podcasts.
Rich Hackman (11:12):
Meredith?
Meredith Shirey (11:13):
So first of all, I talk here way more than I ever do in my personal job, which might be why I'm always so verbose and can't shut up or be succinct, you know, but I think, I think one of the things that has been really interesting and I think really recharging for me and helpful and therapeutic to even use Isaiah's words is being able to show a different side of myself because we all have multiple sides, right? We're all very, very, multifaceted and complex people when I'm in my therapy role, which I love. And I'm so honored that people trust me enough to share their stories that requires a high degree of just seriousness, right. And just being kind of fully there for them in, in it, where is in this way I can recharge because one, you guys ask me questions about me. I can be a little more self-disclosing. We can be funny and silly and goofy, and we can actually make light of some topics that are normally heavy.
Meredith Shirey (12:13):
And I couldn't really do that my therapeutic role, because it would be way, way, way to confuse that with invalidation. And here it's really because we're trying to make those hard, heavy topics, a little more approachable and less scary. And so it's such a nice counterbalance to in many ways, I'm doing the same function I'm speaking, but the role is entirely different and it's great. It's just been such a nice way to have a different way of getting out this information that we have, you know, Isaiah, can I put you on spot for just a second? Is that okay? We all need referral networks, right? And I always needed a divorce attorneys because this is what was a referral source my clients needed. And I would always make sure to meet with people in person because I wanted to get a feel for them.
Meredith Shirey (12:58):
If I didn't feel comfortable sending a friend or family member to this person, I wouldn't send my client to this person. And so I sat on Isaiah's office and I remember the very first time, I ever met, you immediately feeling connected to you because you're so authentic and personable and you're empathic and you're connecting. And the way that that's come through on the podcast is just beautiful. And I love that because I know, you know, so much about law, but what makes me so drawn to you is how much you connect with other people and how much you deeply deeply care about everyone in your life and especially the people you work with.
Isaiah Vallejo-Juste (13:33):
Oh, shucks, what do I say? Yeah.
Rich Hackman (13:38):
And I'm going to throw my hat in the ring here, guys, as you know, the producer of this podcast, this experience has been really enriching for me. And it actually makes me really glad and excited to hear you guys say that this podcast and doing this and speaking about these issues is actually the levity in your day or the lightness and the fun. Because a lot of the times for me, I feel like I'm getting an education here. Like, you know, I'm in a therapist office, or I'm in the divorce attorney's office, you know, and I'm just like soaking it all in and I'm learning. And I'm almost like I really should be paying these guys for all this kind of advice that I'm getting. But I do have to say that I really appreciate that because something that isn't really talked about that often is this sort of stigma.
Rich Hackman (14:22):
And I have to say, if you don't know me, and if you haven't seen my face anywhere, you might not know that I'm a Black man. And so I have to say there is this stigma about black men in specific, but also people in general seeking out therapy or even, you know, in contentious situations, in relationships going to a divorce attorney or trying to figure out the best way to both either keep the relationship or leave the relationship, which is why it's so important to talk about, love me or leave me. And so for me, you know, as the producer of this podcast and soaking in all this wealth of knowledge and information and applying it to my own life, there's a lot of it when I've looked back on past episodes, I've thought, man, I wish I knew this five years ago or so. You know, when I was going through my divorce, there are just a lot of things that might have been different.
Rich Hackman (15:13):
I mean, don't get me wrong. I love my life now, but you know, there's lots of stuff that like I could have saved myself, a lot of heartache and a lot of hurt and a lot of pain and a lot of confusion and misunderstanding simply by being in either one of your offices. So for me, that's sort of been like the growth and the evolution of our shared experience here on the podcast. Um, and if I may, from that vantage point, talk a bit about what has been your favorite episode or topic on this podcast and why.
Meredith Shirey (15:48):
Overall my favorite episode was episode nine, where we talked about sex with Melissa. And the reason that I love that episode so much is one, there was such an evolution to the entire episode and everyone's not going to see this part, but even prepping into it. I remember Isaiah was so apprehensive on that Monday call being like, wait, wait, wait, wait, I do not want to get in trouble at home. What are we talking about? And me having to say, okay, you got to just trust me. I got you. This is fine. And then once we got to the episode, having Melissa on just the light that came up for both of you, I mean, you could just kind of see like this light bulb go on and you're like, okay, and how comfortable you felt and how much fun we actually ended up having in that episode because it was the opposite. I think of any conversation any of us could have imagined in a really great way. So it was so unexpected and just really, really cool. And I think that that's always one of my favorite experiences when we're expecting one thing and we get something different, but the different is so much better than we could've ever, ever imagined.
Isaiah Vallejo-Juste (16:50):
That episode was a great episode, but talk about a curveball. Right? Right. We had this whole outline, this thing was going to go one way and it went in a whole different way. But my favorite episode was episode seven when we had Susan Greeley on, the nutritionist, just because it was such a fun episode was. It was our first guest. And we learned how to make kale sexy. Right. Which really when you can do that. Yeah, exactly, exactly. When you can do that. I mean, everything is possible.
Meredith Shirey (17:20):
I'm sure. Susan would love to hear that too. That like kale has opened up your world.
Isaiah Vallejo-Juste (17:24):
Well, I wouldn't go that far, but possible.
Rich Hackman (17:29):
I personally am going to, this might be a bit of a cheat, but I'm going to say my favorite was episode one.
Meredith Shirey (17:37):
Oh, come on. Really?
Rich Hackman (17:39):
Yes. Episode 1. Now I say this primarily as a producer, but actually when I think about it also as a listener and I'll explain why. A) I have to preface that as a perfectionist. I'm always going to listen to episode one and go, Oh, there's so much that we could have done better with that because it was the very first episode. And it's like, you're still learning by the time we get to episode 13 where we're at now, it's like, Oh my God, I could have done that so much better. But I say that also as a positive, because it really solidified where we started and where we came from. And especially when you think about what we talk about in that episode, the what now life after 2020, it was heart-wrenching.
Rich Hackman (18:21):
And also like a ray of sunshine at the same time, because October, 2020, we were already in the thick of COVID and quarantine. And it was a tough time. And if ever there was a podcast that needed to be made, it was this one at that time, because you know, we're talking about relationships, we're talking about, you know, how people are dealing and you know, whether or not people are considering staying or leaving their relationships in such a trying time. And to hear you guys just kind of talk about it from your various vantage points was so refreshing. I found a lot of hope in it, especially this idea like Meredith that great line that you always use towards the end of the episode, looking into people's homes and trying to just be human. And I think that's the thing that's always going to get me because that is at the crux of what everything we're doing here is about.
Rich Hackman (19:14):
And so for me, episode one is always going to have that special place in my heart because we were figuring it out. And yet we created such amazing, interesting content and meaningful content, not just for everyone else, but for ourselves. That was amazing for me, both as a producer and as a listener, I'm curious what you guys have heard from listeners and from your communities, whether it's family, friends, anybody that you've shared the podcast with,
Isaiah Vallejo-Juste (19:38):
We've got a lot of positive feedback. People seem to like it, and it's great to have people kind of see what I do professionally, but I know personally, even though they don't experience it, but they can, they can hear me. They can here the advice I give and stuff. And that's pretty cool.
Meredith Shirey (19:52):
In some ways it's been strange to get feedback from people, because again, I'm not used to showing this very personable side of myself, except for basically to my friends and my family. And so to have people like my supervisees and other people be like, Oh, wow, I didn't know you were so goofy. It had this sense of humor. And I almost get like a little weirdly embarrassed because I realized, and you guys know this I constantly put my foot in my mouth on the show or I'm like, can we edit this out? And you're always like, no. Um, so like the biblical references and all these other things, I just say a bunch of silly things, but one of the really funny moments. So the Susan Greeley episode, episode seven, that is also Isaiah's favorite. I admitted to being an Oreo addict and having overdose on Oreos.
Meredith Shirey (20:35):
And I kid you not, my mother immediately mailed me a package with like four giant family size boxes of like the double stuf Oreos and some other things that I was like, ma no, I just got my 30 day chip. Come on. I had to freeze some of them to hide them from myself. They're already gone. Let's just be honest. Here's one more little heart heartfelt tidbit. One of the things Isaiah said in that first episode, when you said this isn't in our cultural DNA, because it was such a beautiful empathic way of normalizing and reminding people that it's okay to not have it together. It's okay to not be perfect. And every time you said that, it just kind of gives me chills because again, it's just so connecting and it just makes people feel so seen and so valued and embrace. And I just love that. I think that's my favorite catchphrase for me, Isaiah.
Rich Hackman (21:25):
That's a beautiful sentiment. If I could just share this sort of last piece, I spend a lot of time sharing the link to this podcast on various forums and in various groups, there are a lot of people out there who are looking for answers and this podcast answers a lot of those questions. I shared this with you guys sometime earlier in the year where I'll get private messages in response to something I type in a forum, someone will say, can you send me the link to that? That sounds amazing to think that a therapist and a divorce attorney are talking, I want to hear that, you know, what are they talking about and how are they talking about it? Because it's so uncommon. The ideas that we are talking about here, that we are working through, it's universal. It's not going anywhere. And we've got a lot more coming up.
Rich Hackman (22:10):
This was like a look back, everything that we've done, both Isaiah and Meredith have guests lined up already for the second half of this season. We're not going to tell you who they are. It's going to be a nice little surprise, but I'm just going to tell you there's some real heavy hitters and some powerhouse people coming on talking about things like finances and financial planning for the longterm, talking about heavy topics, to be honest, but we're going to try our best to be really sensitive about how we talk about them. If we're able to we'll talk about things like trauma, addiction, abuse, financial disparities, children's specifically because we we've touched on that and it's been a recurring theme, but we really want to do our due diligence. So stay tuned and got a lot more coming guys.
Meredith Shirey (22:54):
I am so grateful for both of you. I'm so grateful for this process and I cannot wait to see what comes next.
Isaiah Vallejo-Juste (23:03):
Well, we started recording this podcast back in October, right? The world looked kind of one way and was getting worse. And now we're at a point where we were approaching the spring, right? And the spring, you always have hope and they'll have these vaccines. And so I feel like we've come a long way in the podcast and kind of like live with each other in this crazy society through this time. So, you know, they say like our hope lies in our ability to fulfill the promises of tomorrow. So let's get to work.
Rich Hackman [Producer] (23:33):
Love Me or Leave Me is a podcast production of the Bored Brand, this podcast is for informational purposes, only it does not constitute medical or legal advice and is not a substitute for professional consultation, diagnosis or treatment, always follow up with a licensed attorney or a healthcare professional who can address your specific needs. Thanks for listening.
