Show Notes

One of the most contentious times in any relationship is its ending. Equally as contentious is filing for divorce and ending your marriage, but does it have to be? While the process can be emotionally charged and sometimes highly volatile, are there ways to reach more successful conclusions and amicable agreements? Join us and Family/Matrimonial Law Attorney Nicole Trivlis as we delve deep into the details of divorce.

 In this episode we cover:

• The Emotions Of A Divorce

• Considerations For Children In A Divorce

• Legal Options For Obtaining A Divorce

• Dos and Don’ts of Separating

Transcript

Nicole Trivlis (00:00):

So things are going to take time, you know, the process. So emotionally the way you're feeling today is not the way you're going to feel six months from now or a year from now. And just, you know, select somebody that can be an advocate for you. If you're going from an attorney that you feel comfortable with, because it really is a very emotional process, but just take a step back and go step by step and go at your own pace.

[Theme Music]

Meredith Shirey (00:30):

Hey everyone, I'm Meredith Shirey. I'm a licensed psychotherapist specializing in relationship issues.

Isaiah Vallejo-Juste (00:35):

And I'm Isaiah Vallejo-Juste a divorce attorney.

Meredith Shirey (00:38):

This is a podcast about filling in the gaps of our relationships, the deeply personal choices we make for our families and ourselves,

Isaiah Vallejo-Juste (00:45):

And the impact that our actions have on the rest of our lives. This is Love Me or Leave Me.

Meredith Shirey (00:55):

Hey everyone. Welcome back today is going to be a very special show because we're talking about something that is very much within Isaiah's wheelhouse. We're talking about divorce and we also have a really awesome guests. We're so excited to have her.

Isaiah Vallejo-Juste (01:08):

You know, we have, one of my partners is actually the newest member of my firm, Nicole Trivlis, she's a matrimonial attorney and also a licensed mediator and all around great person, a good friend. So welcome to the show, Nicole.

Nicole Trivlis (01:19):

Thank you for having me. I'm really excited to be here today guys.

Meredith Shirey (01:22):

Nicole, can you tell us a little bit more maybe about how you got into matrimonial law or how you came to know Isaiah, because it's pretty cool that you guys work together. I know he was so excited when you joined the firm.

Nicole Trivlis (01:34):

So I've been an attorney for 12 years now, but I kind of transitioned into the divorce field seven, eight years ago now. I, uh, I'd like to say the divorce chose me. I did not choose the divorce. It was, uh, actually a couple of firms and me fighting the transition, but I went from immigration into divorce and you know, I like it. I ended up liking it a lot. My background, um, initially was international human rights law, I was an immigration attorney in the beginning of my practice. So I always make jokes that the 25 year old me is probably shaking her head at today's may I thought I was going to, uh, stop the world from genocide, but now I, you know, represent people going through divorce is typically were matrimonial situations, family issues, but I find that it's rewarding. You know, it's definitely conflict resolution, but on a different scale. I met Isaiah at the first firm that I had worked for as a matrimonial attorney and we, uh, automatically hit it off and really, really exciting to be able to work with him again.

Isaiah Vallejo-Juste (02:32):

It's interesting you should say that about human rights, just as a quick aside. You know, as a divorce attorney you deal with human rights issues all the time, your rights to kids, for example, that's also often called a human right.

Nicole Trivlis (02:41):

Yeah. You know what you are, but you don't think about that when you're 25 and you think you're going to stop the world for wrongdoers out there, you know, but you do, you do it on a different scale. I really enjoy it.

Meredith Shirey (02:51):

It's interesting because with doing something more broad scale, right, there might be a more global impact, but you probably don't even get to see that within your own lifetime because it happens so slowly. So with matrimonial law, I would imagine that you get to see the impact of you advocating for people's rights on a day-to-day basis. And so there's gotta be something about that. That's really empowering and rewarding.

Nicole Trivlis (03:11):

Absolutely. For me, it's absolutely rewarding. And I, you know, and that's kind of what I meant before with the 25 year old me, you don't, you think you're too young and you don't understand what life is gonna be before you, and with regard to emotions and relationships. So your, your concept of divorce is so different, fresh eyes, uh, lawyer that you, you are a little bit further into your practice. So I think I can look back and I think this was probably a position that I probably should have thought about doing years ago, but I just didn't understand that it was going to be a position that I would be good at.

Isaiah Vallejo-Juste (03:44):

I can't tell you the number of calls I'll get. And then I don't represent everybody who calls me and it's not always an engagement, but I'm always able to give some good advice to somebody who needs it. You know, that's always a great thing. And I get a lot of calls about emotions and what kind of considerations should go into before you actually get a divorce. And one of the things I hear often is like, you know, when do you know it's really over.

Nicole Trivlis (04:06):

I think it's a very powerful question to ask. Every person asks themselves when they're going through a divorce, you know, how did this happen? When did it happen?

Meredith Shirey (04:14):

A lot of times I might be having a conversation with someone for months or even years on end where they're going back and forth. You know, they're almost trying to negotiate in their mind, is it worth tolerating? Like what are the good things? And so, you know, in some ways too, they can be trying to find ways to justify staying. So that ambivalence about staying or going last for a very, very long time. So I think that that is something that people need to really, really keep in mind is that like the decision to get a divorce is not a light one per anyone ever. And so I think by the time that they show up in your office, it's probably because they've gone through a lot of that, that mourning process and they've gone through the ambivalence and they've landed on the side of, okay, I do need to do this. So I would imagine that you guys see people in a place where there's probably a high degree of emotionality, but I would imagine there's also maybe a degree of them being a little bit somber. Maybe you're sad. And even.

Nicole Trivlis (05:07):

You know, I've had clients come in and react in different ways when they hear that they're about to get divorced or about to be served with papers "am I a bad spouse?" Also I've, I've recently too a lot of people's religious beliefs. You know, they really have a hard time reconciling that emotionally going through a divorce when their religious perspectives are so adamant against it. So I've had a couple of cases recently where people really try to hold onto the marriage and wonder if there's ways to stop the court process and force them into couples. Counseling divorce is a process. So, you know, when they're walking in and they are the quote unquote defendants and the action, they usually need to take time to process what's going through. So their initial reaction maybe is very abrupt or very emotional. And so you just kind of have to give them time, not come at them with the legal documents, not come at them with the, you know, let's do the X, Y, and Z, but try to give them as much time to process it.

Isaiah Vallejo-Juste (06:05):

Completely agree. I think, you know, you just got to listen. Sometimes people would just need somebody to kind of listen to and then guide them as well. So initially think you do a lot of listening in, uh, one of the things I hear a lot also is what about the kids? What about the children? How is this going to impact the children that we have? Probably we tell them those are tough questions. And sometimes I refer them to a therapist who can help them with that as well. And, you know, usually I think we say that, you know, make sure you speak to the children together and tell them that you love them and support them. And this isn't about them.

Meredith Shirey (06:33):

Sometimes the children are what key people in a marriage that they would otherwise leave. And it's not like there's a good or a bad to that. I think every situation is very different. You really have to consider your individual circumstances. But one of the questions I get all the time is, is now a good time for me to end my marriage, right, is now a good time, like in my child's life, from my side of the couch, if you will, I don't see it as necessarily being indicative of time, because no matter when you get a divorce, it's going to have an impact on your children. There's no way around that. However, the degree to which it has an impact on your children is entirely up to the parents. It's incumbent on the parents to try to make sure that they still have some civility, that they are not using the children as pawns, that they're not trying to get the children to turn against the other parent. And that they're really making a lot of space for that child to process, but they're not kind of forgetting that their kid, no matter how old the kid is, is going to have a very emotional response to it. So how well adjusted they are after the fact is entirely up to how well the parents deal with each other during divorce and how much space they make for their children to talk about their emotions. There are actually studies now that indicate that, um, it is much better for your children's adjustment to get out of an unhealthy marriage than for them to see the fighting and the bitterness. And then the parents were both very detached because they've got so much going on that it's actually better than for them to see you live with more civility apart than to stay together and be at war.

Nicole Trivlis (08:04):

I've seen couples be able to keep a relationship together and have it go until the kids go to college. And then they separate out in a couple of weeks, but others are just incapable of being within the same household without fighting. And then you have to think what's best for the children, you know, is that what's best for the children to see this animosity in a household on a day to day basis?

Meredith Shirey (08:23):

What do you notice maybe about the couples who navigate this more successfully? Are there any traits or characteristics, or maybe some patterns that you see that help people or that stand out for the people who can do this better?

Nicole Trivlis (08:34):

I think the best couples are the ones that can put aside their animosity towards each other, and really focused on the children and communicate on behalf of the children because your wife or your husband may not have been the best spouse doesn't mean that they're a bad parent, or it doesn't mean that they're not the parent of that children. I think people kind of disconnect that because they, in that particular are very emotionally driven. And if they take a step back and they focus on what's best for the kids, it goes to the that's the best situation. That's what each of my clients, I try to direct them in that.

Isaiah Vallejo-Juste (09:08):

I guess you still want to remain a team. You're not going to be married, but when it comes to your children, you want to remain a team and always present the united front. And I think at the end of the day, you know, that always will benefit the kids going forward because they are going to have a lot to navigate. And a lot of new realities of, you know, well, mommy is moving here and daddy is living there. Or mommy and mommy are living different places or daddy and daddy live in different places. And how do we now like circumvent that? And how do we go around that? And you know, it's a whole new reality for them. Their reality kind of changes a bit more than the parents because the parents were totally moves, but it moves a hundred percent one way. I am now separated. I am now liberated, but for the children, they're still going through those, both of those worlds. So we have to give them the space to kind of grow and, and be amazing and beautiful kids in this new reality.

Meredith Shirey (09:58):

As a father, what advice would you give to parents who are separating when it comes to making sure that they're accounting for the fact that their kids are having a lot more to adjust to than they are.

Isaiah Vallejo-Juste (10:10):

Not only as a father, but really as a child of divorce, don't leave your children's lives. You're the worst thing each other, but you're not divorcing your children. And then try to somehow get along so that you can go to the birthday parties and go to the weddings and go to the graduations. And then there's grand kids and you're going to the grand kids birthday parties, et cetera, et cetera, without there being any type of drama. That's what I would say.

Meredith Shirey (10:30):

What about you, Nicole? Do you have any insights for parents maybe who are trying to navigate this? Right now.

Nicole Trivlis (10:36):

I also think that a lot of parents don't think about their own schedules too. And they have to consider when they're making these parenting schedules. And a lot of parents, especially fathers who think they want the weekends, because that works best. Like they have to take into consideration that they're going through a divorce and they're going to be dating. They're going to have a different schedule. And a lot of, I think couples aren't really putting them perspective when they're thinking of parenting schedule. So I, a lot of times you really have to like, think about your, your life right now is not going to be your life three months for now. It's not going to be your life six months from now. And you have to think about your schedule because it's going to be best for the kids to have everybody happy. In the end.

Isaiah Vallejo-Juste (11:15):

That's a really, really good point. And I've seen it many times and sometimes it feels like quote, unquote, winning and losing. Whoever gets the most time at the end of the day, you gotta remember that, like Nicole said is going to be a new reality. You're going to need each other. You're going to want to go on date one weekend and you gonna want your ex spouse to take care of the kids. We can do that even though it's not the weekend, right? And you're going to have to have that flexibility. It's always going to happen. Life happens. And the younger, the kid, the longer these arrangements are in place for. If there's a divorce and the child is like five, you've got about 13 years of back and forth with the kid. And they should consider that.

Nicole Trivlis (11:47):

I mean, ideally you want to get to a situation where the parents are working so well with each other, that they'll have flexibility in the schedule. And I think that that's also, what's important with keeping that amicable relationship during a divorce, because you're going to have changes with life. Life's going to throw you curve balls. You're going to have things that are going to come up last minute. And you want to make sure that you're keeping a good relationship with the other parents so that you can navigate those as you go.

Meredith Shirey (12:11):

I love that. That idea of being flexible. That's something we bring up. I feel like flexibility and communication. I feel like our repeat themes almost every episode. And maybe there's a reason for that, right?

Isaiah Vallejo-Juste (12:21):

Communication and flexibility. That's key when it comes to all this stuff. And speaking of, you know, let's get into a little bit of the nitty gritty. What are the options when you actually want to get divorced? And then there's a few and you can Google these. And it makes it sound like they're mutually exclusive, but they're not really not mutually exclusive. One can really run into the other. You can do two at a time, do it kind of however you want, however, it's going to work for you. You know, there's mediation. And then there's litigation. And there's also something called collaborative divorce, which is interesting as well. And Nicole, I know you're a mediator, right? Fully trained mediator. What advice do you have for people who are considering mediation?

Nicole Trivlis (12:53):

I'm a big fan of mediation, even though I am pretty much a litigator. I think mediation is such a great tool for a lot of couples, a great starting point for most couples. Mediation is a great way to get couples in a room and they sit and they try to work out the differences amongst themselves, which is amazing. You know, in litigation, you have two attorneys they're speaking with each other, and then they're speaking to you and they're speaking to your spouse and it gets costly. Things get translated incorrectly. And with mediation, you're just, you're in there. You got one attorney typically who just oversees the process and tries to make you guys work out the issues amongst yourselves. So it's cost saver and really just a great way to iron out your differences.

Isaiah Vallejo-Juste (13:39):

Are there things that can't be mediated?

Nicole Trivlis (13:42):

In a, in a family context, anything dealing with domestic violence can't be mediated , and as mediators, you also have to be very aware of the couple. There may be a sign of domestic violence, or there may be signs of maybe a power struggle where one couple may just say yes, because that's what they feel is the best route and the safest route, even though it's the best route for them, those you really have to be cautious of as you're consulting with couples.

Meredith Shirey (14:07):

Is there a time when litigation actually makes a little more sense or can even honestly be the more peaceful route, even though it doesn't seem like it?

Nicole Trivlis (14:14):

You know, I typically don't think it's ever going to be the most more peaceful route, but I also think that people are very driven by emotions and this, so there's, some people want to pay, they want to pay to go after their spouse because they did X, Y, and Z. And you know what? People have their day in court. If that's the direction you want to go, it's not what I recommend people do, but it's what people want to push for. And, you know, that's how divorces get nasty, but that's just decisions people make. So would I, I think you can keep your tempers down and keep things focused on just numbers or, you know, your kids. If you have kids, then it's the best route to do in a lot of circumstances,

Isaiah Vallejo-Juste (14:52):

Litigation can be an intimidating process, right? For the obvious reasons as a judge, as attorneys. Um, and I like to say the following when it comes to all of it, it takes two to tango. So it's going to take two to mediate a case. Both parties gotta want to do it. It takes two to settle a case, same deal. It takes one to litigate. If one person does not want to agree to whatever whatever's being discussed, then you don't really have a choice, but to kind of go to litigation. Litigation does not mean your life is over and now you're going to be bankrupt. You you're never going to live again. It doesn't mean that litigation is a tool. It's a tool to kind of get what you want at the end of the day and the best attorneys out there, what they're going to be able to do as they're trying to figure out and use that system to get you through this. I mean, it's painful. Divorce is painful, but that we can minimize pain to the extent that that's possible. Now, there are cases where that's not possible. There are very serious situations out there that happen in those cases. Then you really can't be hesitant about going forward. If you have to protect your children or like finances being stolen and things like that are happening mediation, I don't think will help you. I think you've got to go to court and you've got to get these things resolved.

Meredith Shirey (15:58):

I would imagine then that litigation would actually be really for the benefit of the disempowered spouse, because in a mediating room, they might not feel like they have the room to have a voice, right. To speak up and say what they want. And so the litigation sounds like it would be the option where the attorney's actually going to kind of be that assertive voice for them, where they need to be, where it might not even be safe for them to do it. If they're having to go home with the person that they're going through mediation with.

Nicole Trivlis (16:25):

You know, we've had a lot of cases. I've had a lot of cases where there is complete power imbalance where spouses don't know what the finances are. Don't understand the finances. Have spent years in a relationship where they've just been told what to do, and don't know how to get out of that kind of thought process. And they need an advocate. And those cases, they are not good candidates for mediation. And that, that goes into that whole power imbalance. I mentioned before, and it kind of goes a little bit into the domestic violence too. And it can get that level. Those cases by all means need to go to litigation. And, you know, people also hide things and those things, as Isaiah touched upon before, when you're in a circumstance, when there's businesses and you think the spouse is hiding things and you really need to dig into it, then litigation might be the route you have to go.

Meredith Shirey (17:11):

I had no awareness that this was even possible that people like didn't know about their spouses finances is that people would hide it until I opened a practice like in the financial district. And have these like kind of wall street couples. And now I'm like, wait a sec, this is incredibly common. It's it's honestly kind of, it's alarming how common it is.

Isaiah Vallejo-Juste (17:31):

It's alarming if you think about it in a divorce context. But if you're thinking about it in a marriage context, I don't think it's as alarming. People play their roles in a marriage and you should trust your spouse, right? You married that person. You know, the fact that one spouse knows less about finances and the other spouse knows more. I mean, that's okay. Well that spouse knows more about the other things that are going on and there needs to be kind of that respect going back and forth. What happens when people come into my office is that then that respect this lacking, you know, there's a lack of respect for the person who knows less about finances now. Well, now, now there's a problem. And that's where I come in. Or Nicole comes in and you can mediate those things as well. I mean, at the end of the day, it is what it is, financial disclosures, is financial exposure, and you have to do it.

Isaiah Vallejo-Juste (18:10):

Another important point I wanted to mention though, is that, you know, your attorneys, people get very intimidated when they have to speak to attorneys, but your attorney is your advocate. That is what you're paying for. Your attorney is your voice and really your best voice when it comes to one court or dealing with some of these complex situation. You know, if that ever gets to the point where you think you don't want certain things go is, tell your attorney now, whereas like litigation could be more aggressive and posture. The posture being taken should really represent where the clients are. So the flaw in the aggressiveness and the system is more representative of where the parties are, where the actual attorneys are, is what I would say.

Meredith Shirey (18:46):

Okay. I feel like we've all either seen on like some TV show or heard from someone anecdotally, these, these situations where one person like drains the joint accounts. Is this something that people should actually be aware of or should try to get their ducks in a row when they're getting ready for a divorce, like what to do with these joint accounts? Or who's entitled to what?

Nicole Trivlis (19:06):

I mean, I like to tell people that happens often where a spouse goes and they drain an account right before they filed for divorce. But like I tell my clients, it doesn't matter if he has it located at Chase. He has a located at Bank of America has located in his pocket, half of it's, yours presumptively under the law. So it's just a matter of having him return the funds or having her return the funds. At that point, if you feel that you have a spouse that could potentially do that, then you should protect yourself. If you think that divorce is looming and make sure that you have access to funds separately, I do recommend that to clients.

Meredith Shirey (19:43):

So how do you recommend, or what steps could someone take them to protect themselves?

Nicole Trivlis (19:48):

A lot of clients have separate bank accounts. It just depends on the circumstances. Are all your accounts joins or do you have your own individual bank accounts? If you have an individual bank account, make sure you have enough funds in that account to support not only yourself, but to fund also litigation. If you have to proceed with getting an attorney.

Isaiah Vallejo-Juste (20:04):

And also, I mean, you can also file for divorce, cause in New York, we have these things, probably automatic orders, which kind of prevents people broadly from doing that. Um, and this financial disclosure. And right now, you know, nowadays money is on paper. You can see it everywhere. It's electronic and there's ways to trace just about everything. So, you know, somebody takes out a couple hundred thousand dollars from the Chase account. Well, it's going to be on the Chase statements. And if I represented the other person, Oh, you better believe we're going to get the money back.

Meredith Shirey (20:30):

Are there any niche, strange areas of divorce that maybe people don't think about that actually do become contentious or somewhere where people maybe can miss some steps?

Isaiah Vallejo-Juste (20:40):

One thing that I've seen come up is a firearms. You have firearms, you kind of need to be a little extra careful. If you have an order of protection labeled against you, then you have to turn over all the firearms. And it's easier I would think to call the police and say, "Hey, this person has firearms in the house" and get a little bit of a heightened response. So having firearms in the house is something that you should definitely consider.

Meredith Shirey (20:59):

So Nicole, if there's one thing or one piece of advice that you like, people who are going through a divorce to have, what would that be?

Nicole Trivlis (21:06):

Keep the perspective and understand, especially with the emotional element I tell my clients. It just takes a while for your heart and your head to meet up. So things are going to take time, you know, it's a process. So emotionally it's just the way you're feeling today is not the way you're going to feel six months from now or a year from now. And just, you know, select somebody that can be an advocate for you. If you're going from an attorney that you feel comfortable with, because it really is a very emotional process, but just to take a step back and go step by step and go at your own pace, if people want to get in contact with you, how can they do that?

Nicole Trivlis (21:37):

So I'm with Rosenfeld Vallejo Juste, we are a matrimonial firm in Midtown Manhattan. I know obviously work with Isaiah. My email address is nicole@rvjlaw.com.

Isaiah Vallejo-Juste (21:50):

Thanks, Nicole. You know, I think this was awesome. And I think it was very informative. I think one line you said it kind of said it best and says what I think about the horse as well, and that it really just doesn't have to be that bad. Let it be a new beginning. The next episode will kind of be like our last episode of the mid season, right? We'll have a little bit of a bit season break. And so the next time, um, we'll be chatting about you know everything we kind of experienced. And I, and I understand that we might have a little special guest.

Meredith Shirey (22:20):

I know I'm so excited. I feel like we had to do some coercing and some pleading. Um, but honestly I could not be more excited to have our guests who is a dear dear friend to me. And I think now a dear friend to you, Isaiah, our producer Rich. It's funny because there are two people hosting this podcast every week, but really there's three of us because Rich is always in our little Zoom Brady Bunch squares as well. And it's funny because even though we don't hear his voice, I feel like he's just as much of a part of this podcast as you and I are.

Isaiah Vallejo-Juste (22:54):

Absolutely, I couldn't agree more.

Rich Hackman [Producer] (23:06):

Love Me or Leave Me is a podcast production of the Bored Brand. This podcast is for informational purposes only. It does not constitute medical or legal advice and is not a substitute for professional consultation, diagnoses or treatment. Always follow up with a licensed attorney or healthcare professional who can address your specific needs. Thanks for listening.